helping me put food on the table for my kids. the reality is that i will go without eating so my kipds kids don't have to. >> hard to hear that folks in this country are in that position. stormy jenson, i appreciate you sharing with us. thanks to you all for watching this hour of hallie jackson reports. "deadline: white house" starts right now. it is 4:00 in new york city. i'm john heilemann in nicolle wallace all week long for you. as america heads into the second holiday season of the covid areaa the virus is running rampant through both the psyches the american public and on ground in some places thanks to the omicron variant. if you are in genuinely panicked new york city seeing record numbers of cases and seeing impeding levels of demand for

covid test asks if you are wondering what it means for your gol gatherings that you were expecting to more or less normal. the rise in ace case is only expected to get worse in the weeks ahead. let's listen to what the nation's top infectious disease specialist drauch had to say about this yesterday. >> we need to take this very seriously because one thing about omicron that's very clear, not only in our own country but through south africa and in the uk and other countries it has an extraordinary ability to transmit efficiently from person to person. it seems to be overtaking all the other variants including delta with a doubling time of two or three days. which means it is something to be reckoned with. it is rapidly spreading literally throughout the world and in our our country. >> there is signs all over the country. surge in demands for covid

tests, hours long lines here in gotham city and other big metropolises like family. elizabeth warren, cory booker, jason crew announced they have breakthrough infections. omicron is leading to a wave of postponements and cancellations of events aren't the world. nfl the nba putting of games. and davos meetings put off from litter this month to next summer. official health officials and science officials say they are not going back to the dire and desperate days at the start of the pandemic. more than 200 million americans are vaccinated and more than 6 million boosted. >> with those who have maximal rain-snow mix from a vaccination and a boost you either won't get

infected or if you do it will be most likely mild. if you are unvaccinated i am worried about you. i am worried your risk of being hospitalized or god forbid losing your life to this virus is quite significant. it remains the case that getting vaccinated and boosted is the best way to protect yourself even against omicron. >> for the white house the emergence of omicron means a renewed crisis with the new variant posing the urgent challenge of getting more booster shoots into more arms problemo increasing access to tests and more urge eent the need to make through the hesitancy or resistance of nearly 15 million americans who are eligible to get a vaccine but defying all logic, science, common sense, self preservation have not. president biden will deliver a speech on tuesday to address the omicron variant in unveiled new steps the administration is taking to help communities in need of assistance. biden is expected to go beyond

his under unveiled winter plan with additional measures while, quote, issuing a stark warning what the winter will look lick for americans who choose to remain unvaccinated. that's according to aist white house official. dr. ann ramoyn is here with us. also with us, phil rucker, and chair of the african american american studies department at princeton university, eddie glaude. >> dr. ramoin, i want to start with you since this is a science question. people are freaking out. i haven't seen this level of freak out since 2020 when the pandemic first started. tell us how bad it is on the reports from severe africa and england and denmark.

tell us whether we should travel over the holiday. should we bring our family to us or not? >> you are asking very good questions. you said we are freaking out here. we don't need to freak out. we have cools in our tool box that put us in a very different place than we were in march 2020. we have vaccines that are going to 'em keep people from getting severely ill and hospitalized and dying in large part. we have treatment options that improve outcomes. we have testing available. we have so many things available. but it doesn't mean you don't have to be thoughtful and careful. everybody needs to think about what their own risk is. are they vulnerable? do they have comorbidities? are they elderly? are they going to be around people who are elderly and then act accordingly? i think there is no one size fits all. everybody has to think about it like an epidemiologist considering risk. >> i want to ask you a simple question, doctor. you are home for the holidays.

you have got your grandparents or your parents coming in. and they are in their 70s or their 80s but they have been double vaxed and boosted and they don't have any underlying comorbidities, they are for their age healthy. are you putting those people on a plane and flying them in to see you? do you still feel it is okay to have them fly into los angeles or new york city or chicago or wherever? >> this is a very good question. in my household i have a mother who is about to turn 80 years old. we have having a number of people at the house. we are making sure everybody is boosted. we are making sure we can red is out as much as possible and adding testing into the mix. we are making sure everybody is rapid tested before we get together. that's the best thing we can do to be able to be safe. i am not sending somebody on an airplane. we have family coming there. we are making sure people are wearing high graduate masks.

airplanes are by and large fairly safe. there is good ventilation on the airplanes but can't control everything around you. wear an excellent quality machk, a k n95 mask is good quality, very available. be good with your surroundings. wash your hands, social distance, use the tools that we have. >> i have enough k n95 masks at my house to last to the 22nd century, i believe. eddie, my friend, i think i saw you on tv this morning. i believe you are home, you are housebound now for the holidays because somebody in your feel has been exposed or tested positive for covid in the last couple of years. talk about the human element of this. if i heard you right this morning that's what you are going through. you are one of a lot of people in america. plays on the anxiety and fear that a lot of people have.

how is it affecting you and your house and the tens of thousands of people in america coping right now. >> you heard it right. we are excited about going home to mississippi eating shrimp poe boys and gumbo and having turkey with my parents. my son was going to bring his girlfriend, introduce him to his grandparents. we followed the protocols. he came home. we were masked. before we got into the plane -- before he walked into the house we wanted him to take a rapid antigen test. we had one of those tests and it came back positive. christmas is canceled. we are not having it. the family is not going to meet in mississippi as it were. what we are trying to do is figure out how we are going to do it virtually. the point is we had the home rapid test. we realized that somebody was positive we didn't want to

jeopardize my parents and my sister. so we are going to figure out different way. i think it is important that people get ahold of the home rapid tests that we test before we get together so we know where we stand with regards to omicron. >> dr. i want to come back you. to as i was reading over the weekend i came across a story in phil's paper, the "washington post," that caught my eye, the story about doesn't mark. i am going to read a little bit from it. i had this idea in my head. i thought maybe i will go to copenhagen in january. i have got birthday, let's go there and have good food. highly vaccinated countries thought they were over the worst. denmark says the pandemic's toughest month is just beginning n country that tracks the coronavirus variant as closely as anywhere in the world the signals have never been more concerning. only conpositives are doubling nearly every two days. denmark's hospitals never had more than 1,000 covid patients

at any time, last winter's peak. but hospitals could be seeing 500 patients areeving at hospitals every day. with the strong ability to avoid vaccines, daily admissions could reach 800. denmark is a hily vaccinated country. part of the reason we care about it is because they test better than any country on the earth. they cut the open hours for bars and restaurants, they are urging people to stay home. they are headed towards a partial lockdown. also bad numbers from the united kingdom. are we seeing the future for america in denmark, and the uk, in this country, that's not anywhere nearly as vaccinated as denmark is currently? >> john, i think you brought up a really important point. this is exactly what we can anticipate if we are not proactive. we have a few weeks on the meter here to be able to get in front of what we can by getting

boosters in articles, by ramping up testing, by doing all of these things we can. but the reality is even if we see omicron here. even if it's potentially less severe on some measure, we are about to see a tsunami of cases. those cases will eventually add up to be opted overwhelmed with people who will end up in the hospital sick and potentially dying. so the best things we can do at this point is push forward. get as many shots in arms again. i know we have said this before. we are saying it again. when we can do is use the tools we have to get in front of it. >> phil, you know, i am not either a scientist or a mathematician but i understand a little bit of how exponential growth curves work. it could be less deadly but on an exponential curve that means many many more people getting it and stress on hospitals. a bleak winter -- i was struck by the white house statement,

how bleak it is. we have come a long way since declaring independence from the virus on july 4th weekend with joe biden. how does the white house think right now about how it's going to message, talk about, how to prepare the country for what's about to come in january and the rest of the winter? >> well, john, the white house officials told me over the weekend that the president intends to be very direct and clear with the american people about how deadly this new variant will be for those who are not vaccinated. they are proud, of course, that so many millions of americans have become vaccine nated in the last year and have taken their booster shots. and yet completely exasperated to how many americans are resistant to the vaccine even though science tells us how strng strongly it works. you can expect to hear from the president warnings how deadly this omicron vaccine could be for those still unwilling today to get vaccinated.

it is a political message for the white house as well. of course this variant is not president biden's fault. there is nothing he can do to stop the trajectory of science, of health. but there is a lot he can do to try to lead in this country and prankly to address some of the supply chain issues that made it so difficult to find the rapid tests that eddie and his family were so fortunate to get a couple days ago. here in washington people are calling up cvs pharmacies constantly trying to get their rapid test kits they can bring home to figure out what to do before the holidays. they are nowhere to be found. i think we can expect to hear from the president that the federal government is using resources to get the testing kits out to people to make it easier for the american people to both get tested and vaccinated. >> i want to come back to the politics and the biden administration in just a second. i want to ask one more question related to the public health question. i saw a good news/bad news story

in the "new york times" here. the times story says most of the world's vaccines likely won't prevent infection from omicron. and that's -- all vaccines seem to provide a significant degree of protection against serious illness from omicron but only the pfizer and moderna shots when reinforced by a booster appear to have initial success at stopping infections and these vaccines are unavailable in most of the world. other vaccines, johnson & johnson and those manufactured in china and russia do little or nothing to stop the spread of omicron early research shoes. that's the bad news. the good news for us in the united states, moderna is reporting moderna's booster significantly increases the level of antibody fighting omicron. you said it already, everybody has got to get vaccinated, get boosted. that's clear. but in this world of disparity

between who has what vaccines i wonder about this. because what happens over seas eventually comes here. that's part of the problem. so are there any caveats on the moderna news, number one? first of all, as a practical matter how do you read that news about the vaccines a lot of people have here, the mrna vaccines. and secondly, how do we feel with this larger question of global health where everybody is interconnected but the distribution of vaccines is eneven and different and have different levels of efficacy against this particular variant. >> to answer your first question, this theus about the moderna vaccine, having w the booster dose being very effective, giving you threefold antibodies to be able to protect yourself against covid, that's great news w. the full dose it even is up to 80fold greater. that's fantastic news. but this is all hypothetical. we need to actually see what happens in real life.

so we are waiting to see what actually happens, but the news is good. it looks good. hopefully we will be protected. the bigger issue that you just brought up is what do we do when we have a variety of different vaccines that don't all protect the same, we aren't able to protect against breakthrough case asks we have an issue of vaccine equity globally. an infection anywhere is potentially infection everywhere. we need to really take home this message finally at some point if we do not stop this virus from spreading globally and ibt doctoring vaccines equality, equitably getting vaccines into people's arms, not just distributing it but getting it into people's arms we are going to continue to be -- >> president biden didn't cause this virus. he has been dealing with it. it is also the case that presidents get blames for things

they don't deserve blame for, praised for things that they don't deserve praise for. that's how it works. they have done a good job, yet the sense of the unending pandemic is a political drag on joe biden. my question is, does joe biden need to get tougher? i mean tougher on the unvaccinated in particular. if you think he needs to get tougher, what would that look like? >> well, i think he does. i think at the heart of it are vaccine mandates. we know there is a whole range of litigation in this regard. i think it has everything to do with proving or showing vaccination with regards to flying or you know traveling via air and the like. he needs to get tougher. i want to say it this way, john. i think we have been trying to rush to normalcy, whatever normalcy will look like, whether you declare independence from the virus on july 4th or whatever. what we need to understand is we are still in a moment of crisis even though we have -- we have

learned a lot over these last two years, we are still there. and i think we need to be positioned in a way, as a country, to continue to fight in the midst of this crisis. so he needs to be tougher. i think we need to understand the scope of the danger in a much more -- much clearer way. and i think mandates are at the heart of this, john. i think it is at the heart of it all. >> joe or john. joe and i both like rock and roll. easy to confuse us. ? sorry. >> it is all right. doctor, the world needs more voices rooted in science and fact, who are clear eyed with the dangers and rational about seeing things with the proper perspective. thank you for being all of these things today. phil and eddie are sticking around. >> he when we come back, the final pillar of prebl's first year domestic agenda is, dead, expired, and gone to meet its

maker. rest in peace. or does it? can democrats get joe manchin on board and revive build back better? plus, does the collapse of bbb or the apparent collapse make it less likely that a movement on inflation, the deficit, debt, none of those have any bearing? voting rights, we will look at that as well. and later in the program more on the omicron surge and hower with seeing again the first-hand consequences of turning a question of public health into culture war. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. pleas don't go anywhere even though i'm here. though i'm here. ♪ i see trees of green ♪ ♪ red roses too ♪

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democrats are trying to pick up the pieces after west virginia senator joe manchin's very public announcement yesterday that he will not, we receipt, not, vote for joe biden's sweeping $1.7 trillion social and climate spending bill, aka build back better. democrats are now trying to determine if that bill can be salvages in a smaller form or if manchin's announcement is fatal to the centerpiece of the administration's domestic agenda. in an unusually harsh and personal statement yesterday in which nbc news learned the president himself approved the white house said quote if manchin's comments on fox and written statement indicate an end to that effort, they represent a sudden and inexplicable reversal of his position and a breach of his positions to the president and members of the house and senate.

schumer vows to take the vote to the floor in january despite manchin saying he's against it. today joe manchin delivered equally harsh words right back at the white house, said that there was what he calls, inexcusable actions on the part of biden's staff. and also gave this curious explanation for what happened in the end. >> i just got to the wits end, and they know the real reason what happened. they won't tell you and i am not going to. it is staff driven. i understand staff. it's not the president. it's the staff. they drove some things, and they put some thing out and that absolutely unexcusable. they know what it is and that's it. >> garrett haake joins us. can you tell us what joe manchin is talking about? >> my best guess is he is probably referring to statements put out towards the end of the

last week when the decision was made to punt the build back better bill into next year saying the punt was happening because the negotiations were now essentially all about prig him along. manchin has enjoyed the cover of being one of at least two more conservative democrats in the senate who have had issues with this about i will and part of a larger group in the white house who have had problems with it and he is basically hung out to dry as the only member opposed to the paid family leave provisions. he is chafed a bit from the pressure. in the same radio interview you played he talked about the pressure campaign he has been under with activists and protesters trying to lean on him. i suspect that's probably the last straw with manchin. but i don't think it is the ends of this discussion. if i learned anything from covering manchin, he wants to be at middle of anything that's going on. if democrats can find a version

of the bill that can pass he's not going to sit around with his feet up and let somebody else do the talking. >> if this is the end, it is also the end of the manchin era. a lot of cameras that have been pointing at him suddenly pointed to someone else. you said the word chafed. eddie glaude, i am watching him on the monitor, he's chafing, too. what do you make of manchin's comments today that he apparently decided to abandon all the negotiations he made over the last couple of months. >> i can't say what i am actually think on national television. >> you can say anything you want on national television. i promise you, this is a safe space. you can say anything you like. go ahead. >> it is clear to me, john, that senator manchin has engaged in negotiations from my point of view, in bad faith.

the bill he has rejected. the bill he can't reconcile mims to is, in fact, a reflection of an ongoing set of compromises by the progressive wing of the democratic party. think about where we started with the build back better bill. think about what they have given up up to this point in order to appease joe manchin. in some ways i want to say this, going back to what i said in the earlier segment. the scale of the crisis that we face in this country requires a response at scale. and joe manchin is, in some ways, a kind of relic of a previous era, as if he wants us to go back to, you know a moment where you are talking about annin entitlement society and the like, where people are going to abuse welfare and the like and all of this stuff. so to my mind, john, that comment is a reflection of a man who might very well be -- how can i put this? you know, he wants -- he's going to people to eat their bread

while he's donald trumping his tea. do you know what i mean? he's just unattached to what is happening in the country it seems to me. i tried to edit myself, as you can tell. >> there was no profanity there. i was hoping for he some. you disappointed me for the first time today. phil, i have a question for you, i am not going to ask you to engage in profanity although judging from the steaming nature of this white house statementsomes like they were also holding their tongues but just barely. you and i have been around a few blocks, seep a few white houses including the last one where all sorts of crazy stuff happened. but this is not the kind of language we have heard in normal administrations, republican or democrat. when you go this deep and start laying out a readout, a tiktok, on private conversations between the president and someone, it pretty much is a way of saying, we are really pissed and we are through with this person. psaki says weeks ago senator manchin committed to the president at his home in

wilmington to support the form of the build back better act that the bill announced. while that framework was missing key priorities, we believed it could lead to a compromise acceptable by all, et cetera, et cetera. just how mad is the white house at joe manchin? was this any thought given to the fact that although they are angry, that this might be counter-productive to what they want to get done down the line. >> in terms of one to ten, i would say the white house is 11 or 12. the statement that came out over the weekend upped scores the extreme us from straying that has been building inside the white house and felt by the president himself as the build

back better act has been held up week after week after week by senator manchin and to a lesser degree by senator sinema of arizona. because they are 50/50, they are not able to pass this bill without manchin's support. democrats on capitol hill and the white house have been frustrated it has been so difficult to bring manchin on board. the statement was very personal in nature and certainly seemed to indicate over the weekend that there was no hope of reconciling with manchin. i think if they thought they were a week or two from now going to be able to come up with a compromise with manchin to pass this bill they probably would have held back on some of the personal attack. but they chose not to do so. one other point. you mentioned at the top this statement was approved by biden himself. that's important because this is a president who campaigned on and tried to govern with a sense

of bipartisan comedy. that he wasn't going to engage this the personal destructive attacks that define our politics today that he was going to look to people's better angels, decide what's good and try to make dealing even when people don't agree with everything. that statement is very much out of the style that biden campaigned on. >> just for clarity, when bill says comity, he means c-o-m-i-t-y, not comedy that you laugh at. >> that's correct. >> look, i think there are a lot of democrats out there, phil -- you know, we hear from them all the time, who have been furious steaming mad at joe manchin for months and months? oh, yeah? some on the house side. they are channelling the democratic base, they are channelling progressives. garrett, it comes back to you now. what happens now? we have the "washington post" today talking about the schumer commitment. although the build back better act cannot pass without manchin's support of the

eventually divided senate, schumer said a vote would put every senator on the record. asked if he saw a way forward including breaking up the bill, marchlin complained about the legislative process around build back better saying it was not subject to scrutinization of connect committees. i ask you, given your read and the law of the land, what is the schumer thing about? what does he hope to accomplish with it? does it have any chance of working? what do you think actually happens now in january on this topic? >> i read the schumer statement this morning as a place hold t plan until they come up with a better plan. they don't want to say well we have lost on build back better let's bag the whole thing. speaker pelosiy had an event in california. she says she undeterred. there is inker there. but the best thing i can compare this to, it is the infrastructure bill. remember how far down the road

that president joe biden and shally moore calf at that got on an infrastructure bill before joe manchin wanted to be the guy on that will and was part of blowing that up and making sure the process witness through him. i don't think manchin wants to sit on the sideline. i don't think democrats want to abandon this bill or the elements in it. what i think is going to happen is some emotional politicians, manchin and biden and schumer, who all use emotion in their work are going to be mad at each other over the christmas break, and they will come back and try to figure out how to pass something because it is all of their best interests. >> garrett haake, the one and only master of disaster of capitol hill. >> phil, the truth, the light, the answer, the question. phil rucker, thanks for coming on the show today. eddie is stiging around for another block, actually the rest of the hour. you have more chafing to do.

a growing chorus to reform the senate in order the save democracy. voter legislation still on the table, but not if things stay the same. status quo ante will not do. how it can fete done. if it can get done. we will take that on next. ke th. at any given time. i absolutely have to be sharp. let me tell ya, i was struggling with my memory. it was going downhill. my friend recommended that i try prevagen and over time, it made a very significant difference in my memory and in my cognitive ability. i started to feel a much better sense of well-being. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.

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senate majority leader chuck schumer today vowed to take action on voting flights this new year writing quote if senate

republicans continue to abuse the phil buster and prevent the body from considering this bill the senate will consider changes to any rules which prevent us from debating and reaching final conclusion on important legislation. the move comes as voting rights advocates are voting intense frustration with senate inaction on the subject and the new voter suppression bills around the country. thursday stacey abrams told the ap starting in january when legislators come back into session in 2022 we are going to see a maelstrom of voter suppression laws. i understand the resistance to completely dismantling the phil buster abrams said but i do believe there is a way to restore the senate to working body so things like defending democracy can actually take place. joining the conversation, aaron blake. eddie glaude is back with us.

>> we were talking about the joe manchin situation, aaron. you wrote about it. one of the questions i asked in the last block which i want to get into with you is whether what's happened on today with build back better the blowup of the -- not just thelet of the legislation but the back and forth between the white house and manchin, and the frayed nerves, the personal columny going back and forth between these people, do you think that makes voting rights legislation more or less lickly to be addressed? i can see an argument for either one. i am curious what you think? >> i am glad you brought that up. that's what i have been thinking about as well. manchin probably doesn't love the idea that the white house and all these democrats are attacking hip. even if you look at the same interview yesterday where he made this news he talked about how he was going to vote against build back better he was talking also about the idea that maybe there would be some things that

would be done around the edges when it comes to voting rights. when you look at what chuck schumer announced today when it comes to announcing votes on those rule changes on voting rights, on build back better, i think it does raise the question whether he has more hope on that topic given what joe manchin has said. of course they need to get 50 votes for any rule changes. manchin at the least expressed openness to those rules changes. there are open questions about other members up to and include kyrsten sinema. and you wonder what manchin is feeling about this whole thing given what was said yesterday. i think it is an effort to throw things at the wall, put people on the record. and make these senators like manchin and sinema actually vote against these changes, against build back better. but when it comes to the voting rights bill there appears to be more hope of getting things through. maybe that's the area where we

will finds out if this kind of tougher love to joe manchin if we can call it that actually might have effect on what he might do moving forward. >> as mad as the white house is at joe manchin, as mad as the democratic party is at joe manchin, there is nobody madder than alexandria ocasio cortez. she was on "morning joe." she gose to what her takeaway is, you have got the put pressure on the senate, put pressure on people like manchin and we have got to focus on voting rights. this is in the president's court. let's listen to her this morning. >> of course we have every right to be furious with joe marchin but it is up to leadership in the democratic party who, you know, made the decision to get to us this juncture. i don't believe the situation is beyond repair. but it's going to take a given kind of thinking to get out of it than it did to get into it. it takes the president of the united states who i believe needs to be more forceful on the

filibuster. he needs to also lean, i believe, on his executive authority and say, if you are going to get in the way, we are going to find other ways to do this. >> that's aoc going straight at joe biden there. that's what i read in that statement. the president, who i believe needs to be for forceful on the filibuster. joe biden, senate institutionalist. wary about i think chaing the filibuster. joe manchin, many others oppose it. i am going to put air quotes around institutionalists, because all of them decided youa confuse days ago that the filibuster doesn't matter when it came to raising the debt seal. i agreed with that move. if it was good enough for raising the debt ceiling why suspect it good enough for securing voting rights for all the americans in the democracy? >> exactly. why isn't the president more

aggressive, more aggressive with regards to covid, more aggressive with regards to actually constituting, building a safety safety net that will protect the most vulnerable of us and more aggressive with regards to protecting our democracy, john. at the end of the day when we see is joe manchin is just one among many. but he has been at the heart of blocking $15 minimum wage. he has been at the heart of undermining family paid leave. heart of trying to get out the child tax credit. and now n the name of the filibuster he is going to in some ways.mine -- along with others, one of many, he's going to undermine the most precious element of our democratic process. it seems to me either the democratic party is going to fight or lose. the civil war that you know, that we have written about. the civil war that was evident in the primary before the president was elected in 2020, that civil war is now in full

view. and we have to address it directly. and the president has to choose a side, it seems the me. >> aaron, what do you think? do you think it's the case -- i get yelled at by democrats all the time for saying this. joe biden said the voter laws around the country are the new jim crow. he said it many times, voting rights are really important but he has not given it the kinds of attention that a existential threat will normally get. a president will talk about it every day, and joe biden hasn't done that. now aoc and progressives are saying it is time on this filibuster thing, we must change it. the example that i cited with eddie about how it was easily tweaked to allow the debt ceiling to be raised, do you believe there is going to be a new stance coming out of the white house, a new kind of aggression, the kind that eddie is calling for? if it occurred, how do you think

it would be greeted in the united states senate? >> you are right there has been this disconnect. if you liken these laws to jim crow wouldn't you go beyond the norm when it comes to combatting them? it is going to be building is to see that. certainly the build back better after infrastructure was the big one, as far as joe biden has talked about. they wanted to do these infrastructure, these social spending bills before that. he always kinds of talked about voting rights as something that's going to be addressed eventually. i think that now is going to be the time if there is ever going to be a time to really jump into that. and i think that does involve the president certainly being forceful about things. but, again, it comes down to whether some of these senators are going to go along with some of these rule changes. because it is going to be very important as far as passing this. and i think that there is only so much that joe biden can do. he's been reluctant to go down some of these roads. if there is anything that i took

away from this statement that the white house put out yesterday on joe manchin, though, it does seem to be that they recognize the agenda is very much in jeopardy right now. we are heading into an election year in which things are very difficult to pass, historically speaking and sometimes when those are the circumstances you have to adjust your approach. now it comes down to whether and how far the president willing to go with that. >> i said before i wasn't a scientist or a mathematician. but i can read a calendar in two weeks it is going to be 2022, when the midterm elections take place. if not now, when, on the filibuster and voting rights. eddie glaude is sticking around with us for one more block. in the absence of one single leader being held accountable for the actions that took place on january 6th, a terrifying warning. now how the military must prepare for what to be another coup here at home. it is terrifying, but you are

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from their op-ed this quote. we, all of us, former senior military officials, are increasingly concerned about the aftermath of the 2024 presidential election and the potential for lethal chaos inside our military, which would put all americans at severe risk. in short, we are chilled to our bones at the thought of a coup succeeding next time. let's bring in executive editor for defense 1. kevin, you know, we see terrifying things that chill us to our bones about the possibility of another coup happening in america all the time. hearing from these three former senior military officials talking about the possible aiding and abetting of an insurrection from within the military takes this thing to a different level. i am curious what your reaction was when you read the piece and how seriously you think we should take it. >> i'm glad you posed the questions.

i'm going to call a little shenanigans on this piece. look, everyone is afraid of the repeat of january 6th come the next election and there are a lot of steps that need to happen to deal with the last insurrection much less preparing for a future one. at the bottom of this piece the recommendations don't match the warnings that are being issued. if this is something chilling generals to their bones the recommendations as i read them were, one, they asked more of the january 6th violators be prosecuted, that troops be given civic lessons and taught or reminded of the rules of lawful orders, and that the pentagon war game out the next presidential election in case something like this happens. by my read two of those things are actually already happening and one is so politically ridiculous it would probably cause even a bigger reaction if you could imagine the pentagon trying to war game out this.

in the national guard for example they are making more national guard troops aware and prepared for what happens in case of more political unrest in this country. that is one thing. the generals who wrote this op-ed people should be paul eaton has become a kind of a spokesperson general named at the group vote vest puts out. this is a group of liberal vets who have been pounding trump all the last couple years. they're part of lots of groups that have popped up in the last few years that the right has them, the left has them. these three generals for their quite hyperbolic warning about a real concern, but if the three names on this were general dunford, general milley after he retired, general mattis, admiral mullen, those are names the country should be more alarmed about. >> eddie, i take the point. obviously there are generals and

there are generals and yet these guys are generals which is to say a lot more experience in the military than me and i think you. i think in this moment that is so unprecedented and the kinds of threats to the integrity of our democracy we have to take the warnings seriously to some degree because every time we laugh off the warnings of people who are concerned about bad things happening whether 911 or 1-6 it turns out the people who were alarmist turned out to be right. i ask you what your reaction to the op-ed was. even if you take on a certain amount of skepticism whether the mere prospect is such that there should be some kind of action taken, some kind of reform, movement, maybe more severe than the one proposed in the piece, itself? >> right. my reaction was that the response to the description of the problem was inadequate. i keep saying, i've been saying all day, that we have to have a

response at scale. it seems there is an element within the military, might be a small percentage, and military leaders across the board have acknowledged this of folk who are committed to white nationalist ideologies who are organizing in particular sorts of ways that in some ways present a threat to the union. that needs to be stated and admitted clearly. even if their political motivations are behind op eds like this. if there is a problem as you described it our response should be at scale. i keep saying this to myself. i don't know if we are really motivated to actually admit and respond accordingly to the threat we face as a democracy in this country. >> i want to come back and hit you on what appeared in i think defense one not specifically related to this op-ed but the issue of extremism within active

duty, core of active duty troops. the headline says at least 50 former u.s. crimes tied to extremism involving veterans, active duty troops. the report identifies 458 people with military background who were either arrested, charged, or indicted after criminal acts motivated by extremists since 1990. it goes on in some detail. how big a problem do you think on the basis not just of this piece but all the reporting you guys do and your expertise how big a problem if we accept the fbi's contention that domestic political extremism particularly white nationalist extremism is the biggest terror threat the country faces how much a problem do you think it is within the military? >> look at the numbers we reported. 450 something since 1990. 450 people in 30 years, so put that in perspective. of course there is a problem in the military with extremism but

it is quite small. just today the pentagon finally came out with its extremism review and a lot of reporters were waiting for or thinking perhaps the pentagon would do something they haven't done yet which is define extremism. when you raise your hand and sign up for the military you give up some of your free speech rights but not all of them. the pentagon is trying to figure out what its troops can and can't do, what is alarmist and not. what should or shouldn't be. the big headline we could glean out of what the pentagon is saying is news is if a troop likes a social media post, that can be considered abdicating for whatever is in the post. i didn't post about nazism or extremism. i just liked it. okay. that's over the line. what about if it was like tucker carlson talking last night when he gets pretty extreme or something on the other end.

it is complicated. the pentagon is addressing it, the biden administration to their credit is. i caution about these op eds. the op-ed was talking about what if there was a shadow government and shadow president that didn't recognize biden's re-election? what if there are battalions of troops that gather arms. nobody is thinking that would happen except for some op eds putting out pretty outlandish hypothesis. >> i would say it is the case there's enough things to be scared about in the here and now we don't have to engage in too much like crazy speculation about the future. point taken. thank you for being with the show today. eddie glaude always a pleasure to have you. please stay safe and healthy at home my friend. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts right after this quick break.

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we have to remember this is

the enemy. it is not the other people in the other political party. it is not the people on facebook or posting all sorts of crazy conspiracies. this is the enemy. we in this country have somehow gotten all fractured into a hyperpope arized, politicized view that never should have been mixed with public health. it has been ruinous and history will jujhar shally those people who continue to defocus the effort and focus on conspiracies and things that are demonstrably false. >> hello everybody it is 5:00 here in gotham city. i'm here all week long. i'm sorry. don't blame me. you're stuck with me. a plea to all fox news viewers to recognize the real enemy in america, the virus that's already claimed the lives of over 800,000 americans. that was the urgent message from dr. francis collins on his last day as director of the national institutes of health. as the country grapples with

surging cases and an omicron variant experts warn it could lead to severe cases and sometimes death among unvaccinated a threat that looms larger among republicans because as noted in the "new york times," quote, in the u.s. partisanship is the biggest factor determining vaccination rates. if democratic voters made up their own country they would be one of the world's most vaccinated with more than 91% of adults having received at least one shot. only about 60% of republicans have done so. leaving america more exposed to possible serious illness as it has already seen higher death rates than blue america from the pandemic. from an analysis by npr, quote, since may 2021 people living in counties that voted heavily for donald trump during the last presidential election have been nearly three times as likely to die from covid-19 as those who live in areas that went for now president biden. a huge driver of the divide,

dangerous, dastardly, horrible, and ever present misinformation that flies in the face of data showing clear and significant protection provided by vaccines which brings us back to the aforementioned "new york times," adding, vaccine skepticism stems in part from messages on social media and conservative outlets like fox clues, sinclair broadcast group, and talk radio, and facebook. pundits on the platforms often stop short of telling people not to get vaccinated even as they send a general negative message about the shots. now forcing the whitehouse to wage war on two fronts, one against the lethal virus and the other against harmful misinformation. here was the white house coronavirus response coordinator a few days ago with a blunt message for those who haven't yet gotten the jab. >> we are intent on not letting omicron disrupt work and school for the vaccinated. you've done the right thing and we will get through this. for the unvaccinated, you're looking at a winter of severe

illness and death for yourselves, your families, and the hospitals you may soon overwhelm. >> that is where we start this hour. let us bring in msnbc medical contributor dr. vin gupta, global health policy expert, plus msnbc contributor journalist, best selling author, the great katty kay and i'll start with you because this is your party i'm afraid to say. the republican party. how is it that we got to this point where numbers are what they are? this thing, we talked about it a million times how the pandemic became a culture war but the numbers, you have a poll number here, party identification among unvaccinated americans from the kaiser family foundation in october. republicans, 60%. democrats 17%. independents 17%. i just, you know, it is now almost two years. just tell me the story why is

your party so resistant to following the science? >> okay. thanks, john. i'm actually not a member of either of our nation's two parties. i am registered as an independent. and have been for most of my life. but i will say that it was clear from last spring or into the winter and spring of 2021 this was a bipartisan problem. it is true the actual rate of vaccination have gone up among democrats and have stayed stubbornly the same among republicans improving a little on the margins. it is a serious problem because of misinformation. it is hard to say this is going to get any better. the administration came to power and worked very effectively on the distribution of vaccines and did very quietly attempt with a lot of energy and resources to

get to the community of the unvaccinated through pastors and local press and community leaders and tried to do it quietly not from the white house rose garden or the press briefing room but to have people in their own communities. it was successful on the margins but not materially. we are looking at a community of people that have lost people in their community, that lost relatives. they've lost radio talk show hosts. they've lost ministers. they know this virus kills them. and they refuse to get vaccinated. at this point it is very hard to say that trying to educate the public on vaccines and the benefit will help us with regards to omicron. it is terrible what this does. people who choose to let themselves get sick or their family and communities get sick and to die of this virus impact everyone of course and therein lies the problem. how do you spare the cancer patient, the stroke patient, someone giving birth to a baby

with these overrun hospitals with people who are willing to get this virus? >> i offer my heart felt apologies for identifying you as a republican something you'd never want to be called if you weren't one. i have seen you with such great insight into the republican psyche for so long that i just sort of assumed you had knowledge of someone who actually dwelt in that world for a while. i apologize. >> i have reported on both parties for many years. i think we spent a lot of time talking about republicans but i am really a hater of both of our parties in this country to be perfectly frank. >> well, like i say, your insight into republican thought is always at the highest level. i want to ask you, dr. gupta, about the public health ramifications of this political divide, which in the case of omicron seemed like it could be considerably worse even than we've seen before. i'll read a little piece from ie the atlantic. masks, better ventilation, contact tracing, quarantine, and

restrictions on gatherings should all theoretically work for omicron, too. the u.s. has either failed to invest in these tools or has actively made it harder to use them. republican legislators in at least 26 states have passed laws that curtail the very possibility of quarantines and mask mandates. in september alexander falen of georgetown university told me when the next variant comes such measures could create, quote, the worst of all worlds by removing preventative actions. omicron will test her prediction in the coming weeks. it seems like we've seen the pandemic of the unvaccinated in the past, it seems like this is the one though where we're really going to see the worst possible implications of that for unvaccinated america. >> john, good afternoon. that is right. right now depending on the zip code here but say the state of texas as an example is not on proper footing to deal with what they are about to be hit with

here which is a significant surge. i will say and later on to what was mentioned earlier, i think the only way forward in my opinion is education and clarity and messaging. i recognize that won't hit everybody, john, but there is still an opportunity to optimize and improve. tomorrow there is an opportunity for president biden and his team to update the definition of who is considered fully vaccinated. that is going to help with consistency and messaging. number two and i say this as a pulmonologist, we have been setting expectations for the last 22 months that the goal here is no exposure to minimize case transmission to avoid a positive test. now we're saying, oh, that is actually something that you should anticipate, testing positive, maybe even developing mild symptoms, because by the way the vaccines against the contagious respiratory virus don't protect as well as they do preventing somebody from seeing somebody like me in the hospital. that is going to take time for people to accept the psychological shift but that

clarity in messaging will stand the test of time and provide consistency to the places not yet vaccinated. the way we are talking about it now is hardening antivax sentiment. i think we can unlock that and build confidence. >> sketch the future here. it seems to me, i'll stipulate not a mathematician or scientist but i understand a little about exponential curves. even if this variant is less deadly and relatively mild the numbers are just so vast and if you think about the way the spread could happen especially to parts of the country that are unvaccinated which as we pointed out mostly red states, mostly run by republicans, there could be it seems to me plausible to assume there is going to be a very stark difference between blue america and red america in the months ahead in which red america is really overwhelmed hospitals, straining at the breaking point again. is that what you imagine happening in january, february, and march of next year?

>> that is exactly what is going to happen. let me be clear for viewers. two realities could be clear at the same time. number one we are forecasting at the university of washington 10,000 weekly deaths week over week well into march, john, because of cold, dry air, because of more contagious variants hitting places least vaccinated in the southeast of the country as we've been talking about for months. the second reality and this is vital for viewers to also hear is that if you're double triple vaccinated, especially triple, you are protected from that being that metric care. those two realities will play out. we have to talk about them clearly and distinguish them. >> katty, i want to ask you a question that involves a little bit of like speculative futurology and a thing we could hardly imagine but saw a little bit the other night. the question on my mind is what would happen if the leaders of the right suddenly came out and started speaking favorably of

vaccinations in a full throated way? there was a little bit of this when donald trump and bill o'reilly got together just the other day. i want to play that sound and get your answer on the other side. >> because of that vaccine, millions and millions of people, i think this would have been the spanish flu of 1917 where up to a hundred million people died, this was going to ravage the country far beyond what it is right now. take credit for it. take credit for it. it is a great -- what we've done is historic. don't let them take away, don't take it from ourselves. you are playing right into their hands when you sort of like oh, the vaccine. if you don't want to take it you shouldn't be forced to take it. no mandates. but take credit because we saved tens of millions of lives. >> both the president and i are vaxed and did you get the booster sf. >> yes. >> i got it, too. okay. >> oh, don't, don't. oh, no. a very tiny group.

>> not a tiny group at all, katty. there is the truth, donald trump, double vaxed and boosted. bill o'reilly double vaxed and boosted and yet that is not the message right wing leaders and media have broadcast to america over the course of the last 22 months. so i ask you, if those two and others like them were on the band wagon banging the drum, would you hear the boos that he heard when he talked about being boosted? or would you -- the right, all these unvaccinated people in the country on the right, would they fall in line? >> i guess the much more effective thing, right, would have been if all of the fox news hosts that have cast some amount of doubt on vaccines and president trump has cast some amount of doubt on vaccines in the past had been fully onboard with this from 18 months ago, right? would we be in a very different position? that i think is possible. i'm not sure going forward, just

listen to that response. even if it was a smallish group in that audience they were still booing donald trump. the idea trump supporters who really love donald trump, who were at that event in dallas on sunday, to see donald trump, the leader they love, the leader who, yeah. he is probably right. as he said he could have gone out and shot somebody on fifth avenue and it wouldn't lose him a vote. they are that committed to him. the fact that they booed him over learning that he got a booster just shows you how adamant they are in their opposition to these vaccines. and that is the challenge, you know, for people like vin gupta and other doctors and health care workers and policy makers in the white house at the moment. the number of people, the group of people who are adamantly opposed to vaccines in the states is now bigger than the group of people who haven't been vaccinated but still say they're persuadable. there aren't very many people left to sway. these people are just never going to get vaccinated. that response to trump on sunday

was so telling and alarming. >> i ask you, that is the questions on my mind, the boos struck me and katty has seized on the right thing, is the monster donald trump created now sort of outside of his control, just now it kind of doesn't matter what trump says, what bill o'reilly says, what matters is this thing is now like a prairie fire and no one can control it? they were too effective in turning this into a culture war? >> they absolutely were. and it wasn't just vaccines for trump but masks. he was anti-test. he didn't want the numbers to run up. let those people on some cruise ship keep rolling around because i don't want them to come home and be counted. that was the theme from day one. the actual antivax movement has been going on for so long and built up such steam in the era of donald trump and obviously with the advent of social media before him that all it took was him sort of getting into that to

really lock these people down. now in the last 18 months it really truly has become permanent. you see someone like governor desantis on fox business being asked by maria bartiromo if he's gotten the booster and he stam erd and stam erd and did not want to really admit that he had because it is so unpopular. and he is trying to run for president. this is now sort of a litmus test in the party that if you are a leader you can sometimes say nice things about the vaccine but you really shouldn't spend any time talking about the effectiveness or the miracle of vaccines >> i want to ask you one quick question at the end here. you said education was important. katty pointed out not a lot of people are persuadable. you got a president of the united states who gets blamed for whatever happens with covid whether he is responsible or not. joe biden is dealing with this as a political matter. given everything, as republicans and people who are antivax don't do the safe thing, they get infected and joe biden takes the blame. what is your advice given what

you said about education, what katty said about resistance to common sense, the misinformation problem, if you had a private audience with joe biden and said, mr. president, this is what you got to do right now, what would it be? what would you have him say? >> he can say some of this on tuesday just 30 seconds here, i think we have to have a different vocabulary. they are now going to emphasize the purpose of vaccination. we talked about that. i think we need to coopt tactics from the greatest public health messaging campaign we've ever seen the anti-smoking campaign. as a lung doc you see lungs with covid, lungs without covid. we need clear, simple, visceral messaging who may appeal to people who want more basic messaging. on the back end i say for those not moved by incentives or encouragement based on effectiveness of the vaccines we need to be thinking about who, just like with the organ transplant list, john, who is in priority for a lung transplant or a liver transplant? those individuals who haven't

smoked, haven't drank, or at least for a certain amount of time six months to get listed. we need a priority system to see who deserves access to the most advanced therapies in icu and whether or not you got vaccinated at some point should factor into that. that will also help change minds. that is controversial. >> that is controversial. sometimes you are dr. vin gupta but i always want to hear what you have to say. thanks for spending time with me today. again, my profound apologies. never call someone who is not a republican a republican. they'll come after you with a tire iron. thank you both for spending time with us today. after the break what the january 6th committee has up its sleeve. one lawmaker speaking out on the evidence the investigators have yet to release. plus, as a family works to get to the bottom of how their loved one was radicalized before january 6th the right is using her death as a political tool. more from the latest episode of "the american radical" podcast with our colleague and chicago's mayor joins us as her city braces for the omicron

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miss crawly, it's me mr. moon. i haven't heard from you in a while, i'm starting to worry here. ♪ grab a brush and put on a little make-up ♪ make-up. ♪ hide the scars to fade away the shake-up ♪ you whoo. [ navigation ] your destination is on the right. ok. [ screaming ] do you think some of your republican colleagues bear direct responsibility for that riot? >> is possible i'm not ready to kind of go to that point yet because i want to let the facts dictate it but i will tell you, yes. there are more texts we haven't released. we'll pursue doggedly everything

to the ends of the earth and that includes not necessarily liking to go here but that includes members of congress had in the involvement. >> it would certainly be an escalation for the lawmakers investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol but consider that bipartisan committee of which adam kinzinger is a member might be racing its own doomsday clock up against the midterm elections next november. the question becomes can the committee afford not to compel testimony from sitting house republicans who appear to have been complicit in the insurrection and compel that testimony soon? today some of the republicans are putting forward their best i never met the guy routine in response to a new story from politico. that story says that the founder of the stop the steal movement ali alexander told the committee he communicated with republican congressmen about stopping the certification of the election january 6th. in that testimony alexander said he could recall, quote, a few phone conversations with arizona republican paul gosar, texts

exchanged with the congressman mo brooks and in person with andy biggs. politico adds biggs and brooks have denied meeting alexander. gosar has appeared at events with him but has not elaborated on the nature of their relationship. joining our conversation "the washington post" congressional correspondent and author of "the essential" early 202 newsletter. the essential is my editorializing not the name of the newsletter. katty kay is still with us. the lawmakers are denying knowing ali alexander. they sound like donald trump whenever he would talk about someone he had fired. never met the guy hardly knew him never talked to him. they are all saying that. but alexander was under oath. who are we supposed to believe here? >> yeah. look, ali alexander has already provided deposition testimony to the committee investigating the january 6th insurrection and has been fairly cooperative. now the committee needs to get the other side of this equation. lawmakers from the very start, the inception of this committee have been very evasive and this

has been a key question for the committee how they were going to handle exactly how to get information from a sitting lawmaker. legal experts have said since july they've told "the post" there is little precedent for forcing lawmakers to testify, compelling them to testify as a part of a congressional inquiry in the case that they do resist subpoena. obviously we have not seen the subpoenas yet but it feels like it is inevitable after the text messages that we heard last week that tied several gop lawmakers still unidentified directly to mark meadows and the efforts from the white house to overturn the results of the election. we haven't seen the actions yet from the committee but we know they have been deliberating and thinking about how to move forward to get further information from people like mo brooks, paul gosar, and various people who have been up to this point peripherally connected to january 6th but are becoming clearer in recent days and weeks

that they were more connected, closer to the heart of the investigation than we previously realized. >> katty, ali alexander seems like he may know more about the whole 1-6 situation than he is letting on. here is another section from the politico piece. stop the steal founder told the january 6th committee about contacts with gop lawmakers. the description of the testimony comes with a lawsuit alexander filed to block the committee from obtaining his phone records from verizon. alexander said in the lawsuit that the records include contacts with people protected by privileges, religious advisers, people he counsels spiritually, and his lawyers. he also indicated he already shared more than 1500 text messages with investigators in addition to sitting for an eight-hour deposition. the brooks text he indicated is among the techs he turned over. so he has told the investigators about these interactions with lawmakers. we don't know what he considers protected by privilege. you know, this is a known unknown here. i wonder what you think about

this. i mean, it is impossible to predict with confidence what this committee is going to do but is it your sense watching it given all the momentum this committee has right now, tan has momentum in a way it hasn't had i would say until really the last couple weeks, is anything off the table? if everything is on the table doesn't it seem like something you'll need to know to get to the bottom of what happened on that day? >> we put executive privilege. i haven't heard of the privilege for religious leaders or spiritual advisers mr. alexander is quoting. that report is really interesting because what, in that report, he says, mr. alexander says that he had conversations with congressman brooks in which he said -- and biggs in which he said they were scheming up to the max and had what they call an organizational call. that is exactly what the committee is trying to get at. the committee needs to prove or

investigate whether there was premeditation and an organized intent to actually attack the capitol. i mean, mr. alexander is talking about an organizational call and scheming up to the max with members, with republican members of congress. that sounds pretty definitive. there are also reports the committee is adding more staff or planning to add more staff which would get to your point, john, they are speeding up the investigation. if they are, you know, up against the deadline of the midterm elections, they need to move as fast as they can on this. it does feel if the last ever since liz cheney made the bombshell revelations with those texts it feels like things are snowballing and maybe that is why they feel -- they already have 40 staff, adding more suggests they have a lot of material they still want to go through i guess. >> deciding to subpoena sitting members of congress would be a pretty big step as i said before, biggest clags. and, you know, if you decide to

subpoena, extend the subpoenas up to say kevin mccarthy it would be even more dramatic but the most dramatic escalation the one most people in america whenever i run into someone, a normal person, they ask, when are these guys going to subpoena donald trump and why aren't they? adam kinzinger addressed that on television over the weekend. i want to play that and hear what he had to say. i'll ask you about it on the other side. >> nobody, member of congress, former president, nobody in america is above the law. >> so a subpoena for former president trump, again, i know the committee hasn't made a decision but you think that should happen. >> here is how i'll say it. if we need it, yes. nobody should be above the law but we also recognize we can get the information without him at this point and obviously when you subpoena the former president that comes with a whole kind of circus environment. >> right. >> if we need him we'll do it. >> i want you both on this but jackie i'll start with you. what do you think the likelihood is on the basis of your reporting that there is active

consideration of subpoenaing donald trump to come before the committee? >> at this very moment in time that is not a topic of conversation that we are catching wind of. the people who were around donald trump specifically during those 187 minutes, "the washington post" reporting that liz cheney keeps referencing of what donald trump was doing as the violence was under way as the insurrection started, that is one of the biggest questions the committee has yet to answer. they don't necessarily need donald trump to answer that question. there were a handful of people who were around him that day, people like chief of staff mark meadows, his right-hand man, and others, who were on the phone with him. that is why they want to get in touch with people like kevin mccarthy, jim jordan, people who already acknowledged they did speak with president trump as the violence was under way or on the day of january 6th. for now i think we'll continue to see the committee work around the president.

there's also the fact that this president is notorious for not putting anything in writing. doesn't text message, didn't e-mail. but he was perhaps and as we actually already know, making a lot of calls. he was working the phones that day. so those call records could be interesting. but again, the committee is searching for potentially the other side of the call records and so i think we are going to see that for a while and when the committee does escalate things to the actual former president, it is going to be a big deal and they'll be very prepared to do so. >> of course one of the most tantalizing things last week was when liz cheney suggested there might be a federal crime donald trump had committed on the basis of the text messages she released. i guess my question is obviously if she were to decide to go forward and prosecute that it would be the biggest deal of all. do you think subpoenaing donald trump is just sort of a side show that would be a waste of time or is that you think essential to the work this committee has undertaken?

>> i think as jackie says at the moment, imagine it, the moment the committee subpoenas donald trump all of the conversation is about that. he stalls. he will refuse to appear before the committee. that would drag out for a very long time the whole legal process. they may never manage to actually depose him anyway before they got to the midterm elections because he will spin it out as long as he can. what would really be the upside if you can tell what happened in those two and a half hours from other people's point of view what was his frame of mind? what was he thinking? why did he stall? what did he hope those people at the capitol were going to achieve in his name? all of that you can probably find from the number of phone calls that he made. >> all right. we'll leave that topic there. we'll be back to it i'm certain. thank you for your reporting,

your analysis, and for spending time with us. katty is sticking around. after the break the latest from the investigative podcast "american radical." boy, is that good. death of a january 6th rioter and why her family regret speaking with one conservative outlet about it. riders. wanderers on the road of life. the journey is why they ride. when the road is all you need, there is no destination. uh, i-i'm actually just going to get an iced coffee. well, she may have a destination this one time, but usually -- no, i-i usually have a destination. yeah, but most of the time, her destination is freedom. nope, just the coffee shop. announcer: no matter why you ride, progressive has you covered with protection starting at $79 a year. voiceover: 'cause she's a biker... please don't follow me in.

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terrorist person because that is not the person that she was. and when my daughters grow up and learn about this in history class i don't want them to automatically tie rosanne with this terrorism event. >> you know, for me, in regards to january 6 and all of the people that died and injured up there both trump supporters and the metro and capitol police, we owe it to them and to ourselves to find out who really is behind this and how it happened because this was an act of terrorism. we don't think rosanne was a terrorist but january 6 was definitely an act of terrorism and i think that the damage done from it has the potential to be generational. >> and that was a clip from the latest episode of msnbc's new original podcast series "american radical" and it

chronicles how a capitol rioter became radicalized. the one out now goes deeper into her death as violence unfolded that day and how members on the far right are exploiting her death as well as the insurrection itself for their own agenda on capitol hill. joining us now the host of msnbc's ayman athe new podcast. just talk about this episode, say a little more. set it up for us a little bit. you have some sound to play and then we'll talk. >> if you've been following this, john, you'll see by the end of this episode we have come to the point of really real time reporting on january 6th because of what you guys have been discussing which is the contempt hearings by congress holding mark meadows in contempt but also the amount of texts that have come out talking about what happened on january 6th because we've been trying to understand

that through the lens of this one family. one of the key points has been how the right including representatives in the right and conservative movement and their media outlets have exploited the death of rosanne bolyn to try to rewrite the narrative of what happened on january 6th. as you heard from the family describing it as an act of terror. listen to what representative gohmert said about rosanne's death last month. >> was a determination ever made as to who repeatedly struck rosanne boilin in the head with a rod before she died? >> again, i think this was a matter that was investigated by the u.s. attorney's office. >> well, there's a witness on video saying that it was a d.c. metro policeman. i didn't know if you had been able to confirm or deny that. >> why do you think representatives marjorie taylor

greene and louie gohmert are invoking rosanne in these political spaces they now occupy? >> hum. it's a way to sow distrust in the government. >> ayman, i hear -- >> that was our correspondent leigh ann caldwell. sorry. go ahead, john. >> no, no. >> what i was going to say -- >> go ahead. >> okay. so that was leigh ann caldwell picking it up and what she is saying is they are trying to sow distrust in the process. the sound bite from louie gohmert while he was interviewing or questioning attorney general merrick garland, he is making the conclusion she was beat on her head. that is not what the evidence suggests. there is no video evidence to suggest that is not what the autopsy said. he is using that to advance the narrative as they have with other trump rioters who died that day that they were martyrs of this cause. and so he is trying to beat the drum for his base for the right

wing conspiracy theorists she somehow was killed by the police when there is no evidence of that yet and the family doesn't believe the police killed her, john. >> so leigh ann says sows distrust in government and obviously it does but it seems a small part of what is going on here. this is the ashley babbitt story in miniature. these are the attempts to turn insurrectionists into martyrs, to turn the insurrection into a glorious, honorable cause. what donald trump and others have done throughout. yes her memory is being manipulated in this way. it seems to me a very insidious thing. i know you've been dealing with through the entire podcast but is this not part of the whole playbook for laying the ground work for another insurrection to come? >> yes, that is the minimum wage ooh concern right now. it is something that her family is worried about that this can be exploited and part of this echo chamber and feedback loop is conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory.

you brought up an interesting point about the way they are rewriting the narrative about those there on january 6th. part of the reason they want to establish roseann boylen was killed by the police because they want to make it sound as though the people there in the tunnel with her were acting in self-defense simply protecting themselves from police brutality. that has become part of the narrative. why that is important is because when you have a conspiracy theory these were peaceful protests, they were going there to demonstrate, and they were the ones attacked by the police in this vicious way that led to their deaths, that they were simply defending themselves, you can then try to exonerate the 700 plus people, defendants currently on trial. if you can get those people off from being insurrectionists and rioters and you say that this was just an act of self-defense, you can then once again use those very same people down the road for another attempt this time perhaps even worse than january 6th to try and overturn the constitutional process.

>> katty, i had a staffer on the 1-6 committee say we all look at the insurrection on january 6th and say it failed. it didn't fail. now people say it was a trial run but it was a huge success in some ways. donald trump now and others in the movement go around and say there are 700 political prisoners, people who tried to save the country from the stolen election by joe biden. they are political prisoners. ashley babbitt this woman ayman is talking about here. they are martyrs to the cause. it is not falling on deaf ears. you are seeing in red districts and other places around the country this is being embraced and adopted and used to raise money. it strikes me as just pouring gasoline on already a very, very incendiary bunch of material. i am curious how worried you are when you hear this bizarre world inversion of what happened on january 6th and how many people seem to believe it. >> first off, you are both super

polite. it is a pleasure to be on the show with you. you give each other air time and apologize for stepping on each other. that was nice. look, i think it was clear in the days after january 6th as we all watched in real time and then digested the enormity of what had happened that there was a very different narrative going on among the people who had taken part and the people who support those who had taken part. even then in the hours afterwards they saw this as a victory for their side because they saw it as a kind of triumphant rallying cry for people who were supporters of donald trump and wanted to overturn the election even if they hadn't managed to do it because they could rally them at a future irtime. the insidious thing about the misinformation ayman has been reporting on in such a great podcast is you have people who really believe it who go down the rabbit hole of

misinformation and believe conspiracy theories and then you have the people who in a very specific way, like the congressman we heard there, who use the conspiracy theories to their own advantage and to stoke up their own base. i don't think the congressman necessarily believes what he is saying, but he is very happy to play to the conspiracy theory and to use the conspiracy theory to try to satisfy his voters. >> congratulations on "american radical" a fantastic pod kat. if you haven't listened to all of the episodes please go listen to them now. you will be glad you did. katty kay, thank you for just being you and spending time with us. always a pleasure. up neck, the new york city at the epicenter of the latest covid wave once again. how another big city is bracing for impact.

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hospitals thinning out due to barnout and other factors. let's bring on the democratic mayor of chicago the one and only lori lightfoot. mayor lightfoot great to see you. as you look at new york city and see what is happening do you think this is coming for us? and what are you doing to get ready? talking about omicron here. >> look, we have to look at what is happening in the other parts of the country and the world and we've been following omicron with great interest and concern since we first heard about it coming, being detected in south africa a few weeks back. we've got to step up our mitigation efforts. we'll be making a major announcement tomorrow so i won't get ahead of that. we see what other cities have done with acquiring vaccination proof for places of leisure, bars, restaurants, gyms, and other places. we have to take this seriously. we went from about 300 cases and a downward slope just three weeks ago to now over a thousand

cases a day and are seeing increased numbers of deaths in our city. the time is now to act and we will. >> you've been tackling the crime issue. it's been in the news today and you've been dealing with this in chicago for quite sometime. i know obviously most big city mayors have talked about the connection between the pandemic and crime. before we get to what you have announced just today, i want to talk about what you see over the last 22 months. how much do you pleasing be the crime problems that have plagued chicago have been connected to covid? >> i think obviously you know the crime problems in chicago are long standing and really decades in the making but no question whatsoever that covid ax asser baitd the challenges. when you think of crime you have to think of it in every single part of the ecosystem of public safety.

our prosecutors, our courts, law enforcement, and the soft power of that ecosystem which community based organizations, every single facet of that has been dramatically impacted by covid. what we know is the pendulum has swung too far the other direction and in chicago and i think the case in other cities, we just have way too many dangerous people that are out on pretrial release. we have to reign that back in which is why today i called for a moratorium on releasing violent criminals, murderers, rapists, kidnappers and such, they have to be locked up and taken off the street because they're destabilizing our communities. >> your announcements today, increase in asset forfeitures, made a formal request to merrick garland to send atf agents to chicago for six months, more federal prosecutors and marshals to target people with outstanding warrants. you talk about the pendulum swinging. we've seen in a lot of american cities a more progressive

attitude toward some policing matters and now in new york city eric adams talking tough. in other cities it has become vogue, too. is that where you're heading in chicago that it is time to bring a little bit of an iron fist maybe in a velvet glove but iron fist to chicago because this thing has been sort of out of control for way too long? >> we've got to do both and. we have to make sure we send a very clear and unmistakable message to the people that are violent that we're going to hold them accountable. that is our obligation to our residents and people all over that have been historically burdened by violence but people new to this experience. everyone feels afraid and we have to make sure we're lock going up violent people who are endangering safety in our communities but we have to do both and which means we also have to make the necib vestments. we know from 30, 50 years of data that the law enforcement first and only strategy doesn't

work. law enforcement is important but we know we can't rest our way out of this problem but we can and must invest our way out of the problem. that has to be the long term play but in the short term we have to take the violent people off our streets. >> lori lightfoot resulting false binaries and either/or and says you have to do both. i'm sure you are right. please help the city of chicago. i love it there so much. we'll be back after a quick break. their car insurance. ow! i'm ok! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ only in theaters december 17th. hi. so you're the scientist here. does my aveeno® daily moisturizer really make my dry skin healthier in one day?

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good to see you kiddo. >> thank you, thank you for coming. thanks for coming. i am extremely disappointed.

>> oh, yeah. i know, buddy. >> look, it is not all that bad. "people" magazine just named you the most sexist man of the year. >> oh, i think it was sexiest. >> okay. yeah. >> saturday night's "snl" much quieter than usual but still funny. however, no audience thanks to rising covid cases here in new york. it was a late change but the show did go on. our friends up in studio 8h got the job done as they always do and for the rest of us that actually might be a theme in the days and weeks to come. there is a lot of anxiety about omicron out there right now verging on panic in some quarters and what the spread could mean for our daily lives. something else is certain. we are all in a much, much better place than we were back in march and april and may of 2020 when pandemic started. we have vaccines, testing, a lot of things we didn't have then including a lot of knowledge. and the american people still seem relatively confident,

optimistic, hopeful, at least enough to make the latest spider-man movie the second biggest debut weekend in hollywood history this weekend. $260 million. the second biggest ever. that is a lot of people showing up in theater. so there is still valid reason to be concerned about covid but there is no reason to panic, people. you may have to get tested a few times this week. we've done this before and we know what we're doing this time. so it's been said before and will be said again. keep calm and carry on. that does it for this hour. "the beat" with alyssa mendez in for aari melber starts now. >> thank you. a lot to get to tonight. we start with anger from moderate democrats, progressives, and the white house after conservative democrat joe manchin put president biden's agenda in